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Maddi Leblanc: Hello, all you awesome rad paddlers out there. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Rise and Glide podcast by Paddle Logger. I'm joined by my co host today, Holly Pye. I'm Maddi Leblanc, and we're stoked this week to talk about Sarah Perkins. Like, we recorded this episode... I think, what, a few weeks ago? Or maybe even a month ago? But I'm still stoked about our conversation with Sarah. Like, she I think, is one of the coolest people we've had the pleasure of sitting down and chatting with. 

Holly Pye: So I met Sarah first a few years ago. So she's also based in England. Oh, no, she's not! She's based in Wales! She's based in the UK. So we're both based in the UK! We race on the same kind of GB SUP circuit. We've done loads of paddling events together, we've had some fun SUP surfing sessions yeah, all kinds of events, races and I really like Sarah! She's so friendly, she's so helpful, she's down to earth, and she has such a passion for stand up paddling, it's crazy. So whilst we both race, Sarah's also super keen on sup surfing and windsurfing as well. So I think she started windsurfing and yeah, it's all kind of gone from there really. So, she's done loads of races, super passionate, but I think the coolest thing is that she's obviously her job is, she's a wildlife biologist. But before we get into more about kind of the episode, Maddi, how's your week been? 

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah! Oh my gosh. It's, it's been a great week, Holly! I had another race last weekend, it was our Eastern Canadian SUP Championships and I ended up taking the title! I ended up winning that race and that felt so great! I've, been doing that race since like 2017. So I guess, yeah, about five or six years later, it felt really great to, to take that win. And I think the best part though about that race and the whole part of my week, was just being surrounded by that community at the race. We had a lot of local paddlers from Ontario, like the GTA and Southern Ontario, but we also had a lot of people from Quebec as well. And I just love, like, when racing can bring in good communities and bring in good people and you're just having like a fun time hanging out with everybody, sharing your stories, how life has been, and like, it was funny, my friend Brad and I... the second, I got out of his truck because we carpooled to the race together I literally couldn't even exit the parking lot for like, I think the first 15, 20 minutes, cause I was just catching up with everybody and like saying, "Hey, Hey, Hey" and bouncing all over. And that to me was just like, so funny because I feel like that theme fits with Sarah's episode, you know? Just knowing that, like she's such good community, and she's such good people, and, like, we're so stoked to have that atmosphere with stand up paddleboarding as well. You know, it's not always about the results, and it's not always about winning. It's, that kind of environment, where people are just awesome and, they're so awesome. That's, that's my tangent for how my week has been!

Holly Pye: I agree. Well, firstly, congratulations. Well done and I think you've qualified as well for Team Canada, is that right? 

Maddi Leblanc: Actually, you know what, no I haven't. Just because this race in the past, like, it, has been the usual ISA qualifier but this year they actually switched it to a different race that's gonna happen in a few weeks in August. So yeah, normally this race would be the qualifier, but this year it's not. So I, I'm hoping to do well in that race coming up in August!

Holly Pye: ahaha we can edit that bit out.

Maddi Leblanc: ahaha 

Holly Pye: Sorry!

Maddi Leblanc: No, it's all good. I meant to tell you that yesterday too, when I, messaged you, but I was like walking down the street with like my lunch bag was in one hand and my backpack was like in the other sliding so I just only said, I was like, "thanks Holly". But yeah, unfortunately, no, it wasn't a qualifier, but I wish it was, I was like "the year I win it, it's not a qualifier, but it's all good". It's all good!  

Holly Pye: Well congratulations for your amazing achievement winning on a race that you've been working so hard towards must feel amazing! But yeah, I totally relate to the whole community aspect. I think it was the same when I was racing at Falmouth a couple of weeks ago. I told you before that I was racing at Falmouth, but it was exactly the same. I was like, I just want to go and warm up. I need to go and register. I need to like get my number and all of this. And it took me about half an hour to walk 200 meters. There's just so many people to catch up with, and I, yeah, haven't seen anyone in a long time. But even, you know, new paddlers, I mean, we've obviously been racing for a while, kind of in our local circuits, and so we know all the regulars, but even new paddlers, it's so easy to make friends, isn't it? And just be with like minded people. You just have to do one event, and everyone wants to be your best friend. It's so good and yeah, you don't get that in many places. 

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that's honestly one of my favorite parts about the races too, like when you show up and you see so many new faces and people that you don't know. Like I remember, I think it was a couple weeks ago, like Kirsty, you met Kirsty actually in Poland last year at Worlds, but we were talking about it and she actually said to me, she's like "Maddi, I remember the first interaction I ever had with you!" and I was like, "really?" Like, because I've known her for so long now! So I was like, "yeah please remind me because I forget I don't even remember" and she said that yeah it was like her first year racing and it was like I think it was only like my second year or something like that, but I had just kind of like randomly gone up to her and I had said "hey like my names Maddi, how's it going? Like are you excited to race today?" Like I think I just said that she was like "yeah, nice to meet you. My name is Kirsty and yeah yeah, I'm pretty stoked" and I was like "Okay, that's awesome. Have a great day. Bye!" Like that's literally all I did But she said she just remembers like that moment of like even though it was so small it was just me being so happy and so stoked to see her, and, you know, even though I forget like that moment it's just cool to look back and be like, wow, like I still like to do that now, you know? I still like to approach people and see who's new and getting into the sport and just having fun and enjoying paddling at the end of the day.

Holly Pye: So many people go to the events and they're not even paddling like I know loads of people who maybe usually they'd race but for whatever reason they're not racing this year or this time. But they go anyway just because all of their friends are there you know you have a great day just watching and cheering everyone on and being there which is really great and it's nice to have friends all over the place from well all over the world but also all over the because otherwise you stick to your you know your own environment and yeah, I'm really grateful that stand up paddling has kind of brought me so many more new friends from all over the world.

Maddi Leblanc: Right, and even though Sarah, you know Sarah, and she's a close friend of yours, I feel like this episode really, like, I felt more connected to her than, than like ever before, and loved learning her story and, and meeting her through this podcast! I guess, like, for people who, who don't know as Holly kind of briefly mentioned before, Sarah is currently a wildlife biologist at Cardiff University. She works mostly outdoors collecting data to study parasites and wildlife diseases. Before this, she has worked all over the world researching and studying wildlife. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, so Sarah's super keen on all those little bugs! She's also, she's also a keen, super keen SUP surfer and it's It's important to note, big announcement, that she actually came second in our stand up paddle SUP surfing competition in Cornwall a few weeks ago! So she has qualified for Team Wales in sapsurfing to go to the Europeans and the World. So that's super, super cool! But not only does she like SUP surfing, she likes racing and she's a windsurfer as well. She's been paddling in the UK for several years, but last year... She, like us, went to Poland to compete in the ICF World Championships, where she got second in the Masters 50 plus distance race, third in the Masters technical race, and sixth in the sprints. So, she's a super strong paddler and, yeah. This was such an amazing conversation to have, but kind of actually one of the really cool parts that I enjoyed learning about was how she uses standup paddling, not just for surfing and racing and whatever else the community but also for, as a tool for her research.

So she's a wildlife biologist. She goes to some super cool places in the world to learn all about parasites and wildlife, find out stuff that we don't know. And she's used her SUP as her floating laboratory. I'm like so impressed by that. I think it's super, super cool. But yeah, not just transporting kit to and from, you know, from like the base to their testing site, but also to literally measure samples on the SUP.

I just find that, I mean... I don't know if it's just me, but I think it's really cool. 

Maddi Leblanc: No, I couldn't agree with you more, Holly. I think what she does is pretty rad and not many people do it, and the fact that she can pull it off so successfully collecting her research that way, I'm so astonished.

Holly Pye:  But for wildlife spotting as well. I mean, have you ever seen any cool animals? Or any cool wildlife from your, from your SUP? 

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah, definitely. Here in Canada, we have lots of beavers. I tend to see them actually quite often. And muskrats and really cool kind of bigger animals from the water. Not necessarily the smallest ones that Sarah sees. But yeah, some pretty cool ones. But how about yourself? Have you seen much wildlife? 

Holly Pye: I mean, I also would probably need my telescope or something to, microscope, microscope, not telescope! I'd need my microscope to see those small ones. And I don't tend to take one of those paddling with me! But, but I've seen dolphins, so I've paddled with dolphins a few times. And once was on quite a leisurely paddle and that was really cool. I was like, "oh my gosh It's underneath me". The second time I saw dolphins was when I was on a howling downwinder and I was petrified I was like "don't fall in, don't fall in, don't fall in". 

I was like, "oh my gosh these dolphins" I was scared and I shouldn't be scared because they're, they're gentle giants, right? I was just like there's always gonna be one... there's got to be a first time they've eaten human and obviously, when you start thinking like that, you get jelly legs and then you fall in. And then you just, I'm like, struggling to get back on my board. So that was a bit more terrifying. I've been followed by seals I haven't seen any beavers. I don't think I've ever seen a beaver, actually. I don't know that we get them in England. Maybe we do? Not really sure! But I've seen some cool fish and some sea life, like seals, but that's about it. I feel like we need to go to... Tobago or somewhere with Sarah to see some really cool stuff though. Maybe next time she's going we can... 

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah, hey paddle logger. Can you sponsor Holly and I and Sarah a trip? Go help Sarah collect some data. We'll gladly do that from our paddle boards and we'll log the whole trip! Aha!

Holly Pye: Yeah, and we can get a really good time whilst we're out there too

Maddi Leblanc: Right!?

Holly Pye: Awesome. Well, let's get into the episode because I'm really excited to share this conversation with everyone and they'll be waiting forever if we keep talking! So enjoy. Thanks so much for listening and yeah, enjoy the episode!

Holly Pye: Now Sarah, it was really good to chat with you today. Thank you for coming and joining us. We want to know everything! We've got so much to talk to you about, and I'm really excited for this conversation! But I want to start off by asking, what spiked your interest in wildlife research in the first place? How did you get to where you are now? 

Sarah Perkins: Ooh, good question and also, well done on your research. How do you know all this stuff about me? That's great! So what sparked me about getting into wildlife research? Do you know, I think I'm really lucky and even when I was a little kid, I was interested in animals and wildlife and I knew that I wanted to get into doing something to help wildlife. And I thought I wanted to be a vet, but I would literally have cried every single day of my career if I'd have been a vet because I can't deal with animals that are sick. So for me, research was a kind of natural progression of  kind of trying to do something to help understand wildlife. But, not actually being a vet and dealing with sick animals.

Holly Pye: That's really interesting. So, at school you did, biology and I guess science. So, at what point did you decide you didn't want to be a vet anymore? And you wanted to go into research and stuff instead? 

Sarah Perkins: Oh, I think I was pretty young. I was probably about 13 or something and, and went to the vets to try and get some work experience and I just thought I'm going to last five minutes here. I can't cope with this. It's just too sad. I can't cope with the people being upset. I can't cope with the animals being ill. But I just had that interest in animals and research. And I think it's really, it was just a natural progression to get into understanding how animals interact with their environment. So that's the field of ecology that's called. So I did ecology as my undergraduate degree, then I worked for the Wildlife Trusts for a while, so I was Otters and Rivers Project Officer and then I kind of came back into academia, did a Masters, did a PhD, and just went down the academic route and never looked back.  

Holly Pye: And now you work with, you study parasites in wildlife, which to me, somebody who doesn't know anything about it, that seems quite unusual, or like parasites are tiny compared to, you know, the wildlife that you're actually looking at. What got you into that and what kind of impact do those parasites have?

Sarah Perkins: Well, I mean, we all just suffered a pandemic, right? And that pandemic was a pathogen that jumped from wildlife. So it's called a zoonotic infection. So, zoonotic infections are those that go from wildlife into humans and about 70% of the pathogens we have, you know, pathogens, parasites, I use the word synonymously, 70% of those of us in humans have come from wildlife. So understanding what's happening in wildlife is really important for understanding what's going to happen in humans because we can get those diseases. also on top of that. So you know, COVID 19 was a biggie, right? We all see, saw the effect of that. And then also some species are absolutely hammered by parasites. In the UK at the moment, we have got one of the biggest outbreaks of avian influenza in our wild birds. So we have got globally important populations of seabirds here. We've got a huge number of Gannets, I don't know, over half of the, the world's population of Northern Gannets, and they're all have died in the last year or so from avian influenza. So those epizootics, those parasites and pathogens in wildlife, have a massive effect and understanding what they're doing, how they might emerge, all of those kinds of risk factors is my bread and butter. That's what I'm interested in.

Holly Pye: I actually didn't think of that when I know that, you know, the avian flu has been going on recently in the UK. But I kind of was just thinking about it in the sense that I can't buy eggs because all the hens are, are indoors at the moment and I was thinking about, you know, the birds that you see every day, crows, magpies sparrows, that kind of thing. I kind of, yeah, I completely forgot about the, well, I guess they're all important for sure! But I, yeah, I didn't think about those more globally important and really rare species who are being affected. That's, yeah, it's really sad. 

Sarah Perkins: Our seabirds are really getting in tough times. There, there's a couple of big gannet colonies off the UK and they're quite often these really steep rocks. A very famous one is Bass Rock which is off the kind of east, south east coast of Scotland and when you look out from the mainland to the rock, it's completely white and the rock is completely white because it's completely covered in gannet poo. So there are so many gannets on it, they poop all over it, they turn it white. So bass rock and with the avian influenza outbreak, it's not looking so good because the gannets have been so hammered and the population has reduced so massively that Bass Rock might be starting to lose it's pooey shine in a way, which is a real shame! 

Holly Pye: Wow! So do you think it's going to carry on for quite some time or is it, is it on the decline?

Sarah Perkins: Diseases come and go and hopefully it's in the going phase at the moment, but we have had quite a dramatic epizootic over the last year or two. Yeah, so it, it seems to be getting better. So just here in Wales off the coast, all the puffins have just come back from being out at sea. You know, a lot of our seabirds are just out at sea or some of them are big migratory birds, you know, coming from South America and they come here to nest and to breed and a lot of those populations seem to be doing quite well. So, I just had a report from SCOMA this morning that they've got they've done a count of puffins 42,000 this spring. So, that's pretty good. 

Holly Pye: Wow. What kind of numbers have we had in the last few years? Is that going up, or?

Sarah Perkins: This is a good year for them, yeah. Yeah, it's gone up. That's cool. 

Maddi Leblanc: That's cool! Sarah, how long have you been involved in this kind of research? Like, how many years has it been? 

Sarah Perkins: Eek. Wow, wow, God, I'm just about to go back to the States where I kind of started doing my post doc work for a 20 year anniversary of the Ecology and Evolution of Infectious Disease Conference. So, more than 20 years. And, so I think probably like 25 years. 25 years, I would guess. Yeah. 

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. That's, that's absolutely incredible. I bet you, you've must've seen so many different types of research and so many different types of parasites over the course of your career, and I mean, would you say, with the pandemic, this has probably been one of the most interesting years to be involved in this sort of research?

Sarah Perkins: Yes and no. I think there was a lot of there was a lot of panic happened, kind of knee jerk reaction to this particular pandemic, but there's been lots of pandemics before. I think some of the more interesting research from my perspective has happened in the past. I think there's a lot of really interesting research out there about how high biodiversity is a very good thing for disease. If you reduce biodiversity, you kind of increase the contact rate sometimes. between humans and wildlife that can lead to spillover. So some of that work that's not happening in times of panic like a pandemic have been really, really interesting. But yeah, I've, I've been to some great places and seen some cool stuff for sure. I feel pretty lucky. 

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. I honestly think  just your adventures what we see online and your pictures look. So incredible, and actually before we jumped on the podcast, Holly told me that you recently were on a trip and you just got back. Would you like to tell us a little bit about where you were and what you were doing?

Sarah Perkins: I would, yeah. So I was just on a Water Skills Academy kind of guided trip around Noidart, which is up in Scotland, and the really great thing about Noidart is it's a peninsular part of Scotland where there are no roads in and no roads out. So it is really fantastic from a wildlife perspective. And as we started, you know, we hadn't even really taken a paddle stroke, and somebody said to us, the kind of the, the lock keeper, he said, Oh, be careful when you go past that island, because the white tailed sea eagle has just had its chicks. So literally two days before it had chicks we were like, "okay, well, we'll stay, we'll stay far away from that". But we went out into the wilderness and we just saw fantastic wildlife. There was a particular bird I really wanted to see that you can only see in that part of Scotland, which is a black throated diver. You might know it as a loon, Maddi. They're called loons in your part of the world. 

Maddi Leblanc: That's right. We have it on our Canadian dollar!

Sarah Perkins:  Of course you do. It's a loonie. It's the Canadian dollar. That's right. That's right! Yeah. So, I hadn't seen one of those before, and they make a fantastic sound as well and night number one as we're camping, we're just about to drift off to sleep, and my good friend Sarah Thornley, who was with me, just went "Sarah, What was that?" And sure enough, it was one of these black throated divers started their really haunting call. I was like, it's okay. It's the bird I've been wanting to hear and we're hearing it. So we heard it on night one, which was superb. And then as we were leaving, we got a ferry off this peninsula. A cetacean, cetaceans are whales and dolphins. A cetacean appeared right in front of the boat. And I was like, ooh what was that? It went up, disappeared, thought, okay, it's going to come up again. It had this really sickle type dorsal fin, and it was big. And I thought, that's not a dolphin. And sure enough, it was a minke whale it appeared right next to our boat and just surfaced. And we got a fantastic view of it. And I thought, well, what a great wildlife trip that was. All on SUP. You know, it was superb. 

Holly Pye: I think SUP is a really cool way to, to, exploring to see wildlife, because you're not going fast or noisily like in a boat, are you? You kind of, you can go just peacefully. I wonder if the, you know, sea life find it interesting to see the paddleboards from above or there from below, I suppose. But I think it's you know, it's much less disturbing to their environment than zooming past in a powerboat. 

Sarah Perkins: Oh, completely. And I think that we can very gently kind of observe wildlife and, and let the wildlife approach you as well. I mean, you say Holly about wildlife might be interested and as of course, one thing that is quite inquisitive that we might encounter is seals. I remember a great paddle I did down the Gower here in Wales, where we paddled out along this, this superb peninsula, it's called the Worm's Head. It's absolutely fantastic, and as we're paddling, we kept hearing this plop, thought, and we turn around, think, well what was that, okay, I know it's grey seals following us, and we paddle along and we turn around, plop, it was like they were playing some weird game of Grandmother's Footsteps, where we could never quite see them, but they were totally inquisitive, and we weren't approaching them, they were following us, and by the time we got to the end of the worm's head there was a, like, five or six grey seals just following us, really inquisitive what we were up to. So, it was a really lovely experience to interact with them while we were just paddling slowly and they were just approaching us. It was great. 

Holly Pye: Wow! We get seals here sometimes. In Plymouth, I was paddling a couple of weeks ago and I just, I don't know, you get that feeling that you're being watched. I turned around and there was a seal with its head poked out about 20 meters behind me and I sort of knelt down I really wanted to get a picture of it. I just knelt down quietly and it watched me and sort of like snorted and then it went away, it swam down again. So I just stayed around and then it popped back up and each time it was coming a bit closer, and then I thought it had gone away because I didn't see it for a couple of minutes. So I started, I was still kneeling with my phone out. So, you know, I was putting my phone away and I was about to stand up again... and suddenly I turned around and it was so close right behind me, but it made me jump because I wasn't expecting it, so I sort of like, you know, jumped, and I think I must have scared it, because then in a split second it was gone and I didn't see it again at all, but they're so cool, you know! I never get over the feeling of paddling with something, even though I know that in the sea there's lots of marine life, there's lots of animals underneath us, but because you don't see them you just assume they're not there.

Do you have seals or anything Maddi? 

Maddi Leblanc: You know what I would say more so on the east and west coast of Canada. Where I'm based on the Great Lakes, definitely none, none around me. Ahaha!

Holly Pye: Fair enough. But you get them at the, at the coast.

Sarah Perkins: When you're on a SUP it's... It's, and you're in that kind of marine environment, and to a certain extent the fresh water environment what I love doing is just putting on a mask and snorkel and sticking my head over the edge of the SUP, and I think you can, you can get into some really nice little areas and just stick your head over and have a little look. And I'll have to confess that I don't actually like deep open water, so if I'm on a SUP I feel quite safe and and happy doing that, that I can just stick my head over and there's a very nice wreck site that you can paddle to from, from a beach locally here. You can just paddle out to, with your sup, stick your head over and you know, you can see all kinds of really good stuff there, wrasse, conger but if you're on the sup you kind of, well I feel safe anyway.

Maddi Leblanc: Thats right! Yeah, on your Instagram, I saw there was a video. It looked, I have to say, it looked pretty funny of you over the side of your sup and your legs were, like, flailing in the air a little bit, but you were looking at a manta ray? I believe.

Sarah Perkins: Oh, yes. Yeah.

Maddi Leblanc: Can you actually tell us a bit about that?

Sarah Perkins: Sure. So that is from a site where we go to do research. So I've been going to Tobago in the Caribbean for the last 10 years. And what we research there is cleaner fish. So related to my kind of research theme about parasites, cleaner fish are these tiny little fish that kind of feed on the parasites of all the other fish. So they keep the reef healthy. So we've been doing this long term study on their behaviour and I think it was last year we went there and day one I thought, "Wow, there's something in the bay. What's in the bay?" And we could just see something just appearing above the surface and to begin with, we thought it might have been a hammerhead shark. So we immediately jumped in the water. Thought, right, we're going to go and have a look at this. And I was on the paddle board, paddled out, and then we realised as we got closer it was a manta ray. And it was the first one we'd seen there, and it was superb. And it was just, it was fishing, well fishing, it was just swimming around there for hours. Hours and hours and we got this fantastic sighting of it, so it was great. Great, great start to that research trip.

Holly Pye: How big was it?

Sarah Perkins: Oh, it was a tiddler. So it was probably like a metre and a half.

Holly Pye: Oh, I mean that's quite big. In my opinion. That's big enough for me to get a bit scared! Ahah!

Maddi Leblanc: It's bigger than a stingray! 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, there's some big stuff there. We have seen quite sadly actually, we had a leatherback turtle once that came floating onto the reef. We thought "This isn't right, something's wrong here". So we paddled out to it, so we take a SUP with us and we use the SUP for safety because we have people in the water and we use it as a means of transport, getting to and from our beach where we're working and we use it to transport equipment. So it's our floating laboratory. Anyway, so we took the SUP out to this leatherback turtle and as we got there, we realized that the leatherback was dead. And what had happened is she'd come in the night before to lay her eggs on the beach and she'd got caught in a drift net and she drowned. So they have to come up to take care and in her mouth so, you know, we went under, snorkeled underwater, had a look in her mouth, in her mouth was still the remnants of that drift net. So the fishermen had just come and cut it out and just pushed it back out to sea and it had floated round onto our reef. But she was enormous. She was probably about 40 years old and she was about the size of a mini car. You know, she was big.

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. Whoa. That's insane. I don't think I've ever heard of a turtle being that big!

Sarah Perkins: She was massive. Massive. And then we caused almost an international incident because what we decided to do was dissect her. So we thought, okay, she's died. She's,you know, been killed in this drift net. Let's take her back to the village and let's dissect her. And, and I must admit, we didn't think this through. We thought we'd find some, some... we definitely would have found some parasites new to science. But, we kind of didn't think through what was going to happen if we towed an enormous turtle back onto the beach. And then the entire village came down and asked us what time dinner was and we were like, "oh, no this isn't going the way we thought". And and of course you have to do it under licence because they're a protected species, so we were under licence of our, our colleagues there. But still the, the local villagers thought that we'd caught it and killed it and we were like this is a PR campaign going wrong. So we very quickly changed our minds to kind of dissecting this giant turtle on the beach.  

Holly Pye: That's really hard to imagine. I mean, in a way, it's, it's really sad that she died in that way. But in a way it would have been beneficial, I guess, if something has died in a... I don't know, not, it's not at all natural, but if something's died... not because you've killed it, you almost might as well make use of what you can.

Sarah Perkins:  I mean that was our thought process! Because turtles are still poached, right? A lot of them are still bushmeat, they're a real prized bushmeat, and there's a lot of people who go and guard these turtle nesting sites with machetes. You know, they're because, and there's people who are coming to take those turtle eggs and take the turtles with machetes as well. So it can get pretty fierce out there, and so when we turn up with a giant, you know, freshly killed turtle, half the village wanted to eat it and half of them wanted to dissect it. So we were in a difficult place there.

Holly Pye: So what did you do?  Did you just take it back? Took it back 

Sarah Perkins: Took it back  to sea. Yeah. Yeah. Very sad.

Holly Pye: Poor turtle. Yeah. Have you seen other things like that? Other kind of, I mean, you must see all sorts when you're out in the middle of the ocean or in these really remote places. You must see some really cool stuff, but also some really shocking stuff. 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll change the tone to nicer things, you know, seeing things alive. And I could tell you about what was the most mind blowing snorkel I have ever done. And, and I also gave a SUP lesson in this location, which was something quite strange because we were a hundred kilometres out to sea on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. We were at the University of Sydney's field station, it's called One Tree Island. And there is more than one tree, before you ask, but not many. It's a tiny little island, surrounded by a massive lagoon. We were the only people on the island, myself, a colleague and our PhD researcher alongside the custodians who just bought stand up paddle boards. And so I gave this lesson to them in this lagoon. Anyway, their reef is pristine. It's absolutely pristine. I'd never seen anything like it. It was like being in a movie when we started to snorkel through what they called Shark Alley. Great! It was just huge corals and it was lots of sharks, lots of rays, lots of turtles, lots of big shoals of stuff. Literally didn't know where to look. It was absolutely stunning. Stunning, stunning reef. Really, there was no coral bleaching, diversity was huge. It was one of those real "pinch me moments" that this was kind of my job and I was getting paid to do it.

Holly Pye: I can  imagine. 

Maddi Leblanc: Are you, do you think you'll have the chance to go back there anytime soon or, or would you go back?

Sarah Perkins: Oh, I'd definitely go back. We talked about it actually, doing another trip out there next year. But what we were doing there was again working on these cleaner fish, so it's a different species in Australia, it's a blue streak wrasse and we were, we were just interested in their cleaning behaviour and we found they did something really unusual. Which, which we managed to get published. So normally cleaner fish have to, or they're like obligate cleaners. They, they can only eat parasites off other fish. And we found the ones there had shifted their behaviour to feed on corals. It's such a well studied little fish and nobody had ever observed this. And we were like, okay, so because this is such a remote island in, out in the Great Barrier Reef. Or at all, really. There could be something really different happening there in terms of the evolution and adaptation of species. So we were like, well, let's go back and see what else is quirky. So yeah, it's on our cards. We might do it next year. 

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. That, that must be such a cool opportunity to have these ideas in the world of academia. And, and research and knowing like, okay, these are like really hot topics with... A, B, and C kind of species and to be able to choose what you want to study and go to these remote places, like, wow, how, how incredible is that?

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, I really think it is the best job in the world because you can follow your nose and just do interesting stuff. And in some ways, It's also, it's downfall because you end up doing, well I do anyway, 10 different projects and then you're like, "oh, whoops, I've got a lot going on". But we have just started, I mean it's not just all overseas stuff, we're doing stuff in the UK. And another thing where we kind of bring in the paddleboard, is we've started to do some work in UK rivers looking at, contaminants. So, you know, we all know that rivers are, after heavy rainfall, subject, in the UK anyway, and I suspect very much elsewhere, are subject to pollution from, from sewage. So we get these combined sewer overflows, our rainfall goes into the sewer system, can't all cope, so there's a release, which includes sewage. So we've started to sample otter poo to look for indication of some of that sewage coming into the river environment. So see if we can look for certain pathogens in otter poo. Otter poo is really easy to find. You can literally go up the river on a paddle board and otters, they do like these tiny little poos because their poos are part of a kind of scent marking that says, hey this is my territory. You can collect that sample take it on the SUP, you know, up and down the river, you can survey a good bit of the river, take it back to the lab and then plate it out in the laboratory to see which bacteria grow. So we're doing that in the UK. That's a new project of ours we've just started.

Holly Pye: And have  you found anything interesting yet? Or is it still too early to tell?

Sarah Perkins: But I'll tell you what, it's not pretty out there. We also kind of teamed this up with a project we called the Sentinel Surfer. And it was kind of inspired by... One particular spot that I do surf at, which is a river mouth, that we all know not to surf after rainfall because it's pooey. And we were swabbing the skin of surfers as well to see if there was any kind of coliform bacteria which is an indicator of fecal contamination. And so far we've, we've found that, yeah, there is... It's, there's contamination out there for sure. Yeah. Sometimes worryingly so.

Holly Pye: Yeah. Really, it's such a real shame. I was supposed to be going out surfing, actually, not that long ago. Last week, possibly. We had some really heavy rainfall, and I couldn't go in because I just had so much... But I was my friends were messaging me one of them said it was like eight o'clock in the morning and they said, Oh, just seen an alert for like sewage levels. So I mean, I think one or two of them did still go out, but most of them didn't. And it's, it's a real shame that, you know, we have to deal with this. Do you have any kind of anything like that in Canada, Maddi? 

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah, you know what, I can think of that definitely on a, a local context in terms of the City of Toronto. We have the exact same problem where the sewage system is just so old and so when we have heavy levels of rainfall, definitely overflows from the sewage system and spills over into the lake, which most of the water is treated, but there is that small percentage that, that does consist of poo, which is not lovely. And recently, too, I, I lived in California for a few months, and the exact same thing! You just did not surf there after, after a rain. The rivers were brown as brown could be. The darkest shade of brown I've ever seen in my life! And it's, it's kind of sad. I feel like we all experience this as, as outdoor recreationists that on that scale, we can, we can see it happening like in our own backyards of, of pollution happening after Mother Nature's doing her thing. 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah absolutely. We're just about to start fingers crossed if we get the funding and I think it's looking good a new PhD researcher in October is going to be working on looking at recreational water users. I. e. paddle boarders, kayakers, wild swimmers, and their exposure to kind of fecal contamination and antimicrobial resistance. So, you know, we shouldn't have to swim and paddle in this stuff, should we? And, and nor should wildlife, really. You know, that's their only habitat. That's what they're stuck with. So they're exposed to that too. And I would say that some of the contamination is very localized. Which is one thing at least. But yeah, we're going to dig around in that a little bit and see what effect rewilding rivers can have. So if you kind of have more buffers around the edge of the river, more kind of woodland, etc. that can perhaps control the water flow into the river a little bit better as well. So we're going to see if that makes a difference. And also control perhaps the runoff of cattle, so that kind of fecal contamination happens as well. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, that's really interesting, because I was thinking, I mean, the first thought that comes to mind when you talk about contaminants, I remember learning in geography years ago, is like, you know, pesticides and fertilizers and things like that, the runoff from fields into rivers and then down to the sea, so chemical contaminants as well as Fecal contaminants, I guess. None of it's good for the fish. 

Sarah Perkins: None of it's good, no. We do have another project running at the moment where we're looking at contaminants in sharks. So we have this very nice bit of kit at Cardiff Uni where we can use a laser to fire on the central which is basically like the vertebral bone of a shark except, you know, they're made of cartilage and you can fire it on there and then it reports back to us what contaminants are found. And we're sampling sharks which are a fishing discard. So it's the cat shark, also known as the dogfish. We've sampled that all around the Bristol Channel and down in Devon. And we're finding some really interesting stuff there that I absolutely can't tell you about so I shouldn't have even mentioned the project! ahaha!

Holly Pye: Top secret. That's okay! It's all a secret for now. Well we can look forward to... We can look forward to hearing about the results in a few months. few months. Whenever the project is finishing, yeah. 

Maddi Leblanc: Yes, please report back. That would be absolutely fascinating to learn more about that. But I'm really stoked to actually kind of dive into like how you even got into standup paddleboarding as a method for, your research and just being out there in general, like how. How did you get into the activity? 

Sarah Perkins: Do you know it was, it was dead easy to use it in the research front because it was really Tobago that did it because we weren't, we were on one little beach but our, our field site is about a kilometre away and you can't access it unless you get a boat there and then you're dependent on a boat man, blah blah blah and we're kind of stuck there all day so we thought, okay, from a safety perspective we need to have a means to get back and forth to our home beach, and stand up paddle board, absolutely yeah, it made sense to do that. And from a safety, you know, aspect in terms of having people in the water if anybody's in trouble, it's our rescue board. You know, we can run out and we've never had to rescue anybody but it's there if we need it. We do this big snorkel route round the back of an island that's a little bit offshore and we take that with us as well as a kind of safety measure.

But. It really, kind of, became very, very useful when we turned it into our floating lab. So, when you're out sampling corals, which, and we did one project where we were sampling the microbiota, you know, we have a gut microbiota, corals have a microbiota, they're covered in like this slime that has lots of bacteria in it. We were sampling that. When you're swabbing a coral, you're kind of like, "Okay, I've got a swab, now what am I going to do with it?" You can't swim back to the shore. So we've got one person on the SUP, one person swabbing the coral, they kind of have this inverted tube, bring it back and we just put it in this kind of row of tubes on, on the SUP. And we've also done some sampling of fish as well. So you can sample a fish very quickly and put it back in, in the water. And you've got all of that happening on your mobile lab, i. e. a SUP. I can't see how else we do it. It has to be a SUP. 

Holly Pye: How did you get into SUP initially? Way before that, you know, just water sports in general. What was your... Did you get into water sports when you were a child or when you were an adult? 

Sarah Perkins: No, not really. So I did, I was really lucky. I did my PhD in Italy and I lived on Lake Garda and so I windsurfed. And I'd always thought windsurfing looked great, so I learned to windsurf there, of course. You know, you can't get away from it. It's a windsurfing mecca. And I had great fun doing that. So, I mean, as you probably know, Holly, as well, you know, if you're doing those kind of sports, at some point, someone's got to SUP, and you jump on it. Because there's no wind, and then you have a go on the SUP, and you think, Oh, okay, you know, we can do this when there's no wind. But I'm one of those people who actually found it really boring. So, everybody else says, "Oh, I've jumped on a SUP, I've had a go, and it was great" and I'm thinking, first time I jumped on the SUP, I was like, "Ooh, don't think I'll do that again". You know, because you've come from Windsurfing. It's slow compared to windsurfing. Yeah. It's like, I'd rather go 25 knots, please, if I could. And then you think, Eh, boring. And I think I've kind of come full circle now, whereas I can literally go round and round in circles for hours and enjoy myself now, if I think there's... A technical aspect that I could improve, or my speed, or I'm, I'm on a wave, or, yeah. I then very quickly went into the waves and I was like, okay, now SUP's fun. I like it. And into race, yeah, now is SUP's fun.

Holly Pye: That's incredible. I kind of, I. definitely see that I think if you're paddling aimlessly with no kind of goal in mind it's different if it's like a you know a social paddle with friends or you know you're exploring new places or something interesting but if you're kind of in your local just going round and round in circles for no real reason it probably gets kind of boring and definitely the technical aspect of being able to go downwinding or SUP surfing or you've got a race coming up and you need to train for it I think that makes it way more interesting But it's always fun to combine it with a wind sport as well For those days where you can't paddle you can windsurf or you can't windsurf you can stand up paddle and and then you started racing. Did you start racing after learning to SUP surf? What got you into racing? 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, I was definitely into the SUP surf first and then I, I just kind of, it's another technical aspect of the sport, isn't it? Let's give racing a go. And I entered a race called the X Hammer, which is a race up a river in, in the UK here. And I entered it with, I've got a twin, with my twin sister. I was like, "come on, let's enter this race together. It will be great fun". She's like, yeah, sure. And then we realized within about, 20 meters it wasn't going to be great fun. And we were both dead last. We did it together dead last and halfway through she got her fins stuck in the mud because it's an estuary at the top and the tide was. Changing anyway, she got her fin stuck in the mud and I remember us being right next to a big wedding party that were in this fabulous looking pub and she literally turned the air blue with the frustration of it and I was like, "ah, come on, I think we can head off" but anyway dead last. But I really was hooked. I thought "that was good fun" you know, I could see that there's room for improvement, you know, I, won't be last again and then I just got into it more and more and I really do enjoy the racing. It's great fun. It's a great scene. I really enjoy the people you meet as well as the actual kind of racing and the fitness and the technical benefit. It's a really good fun scene. 

Maddi Leblanc: And to think like how far along you've come. You know, from that first race to dead last to I believe second place, right? At the ICF World Championship for the distance race. And I think you had third in the technical? If I'm not mistaken, can you tell us a bit about your world's experience and how that was?

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, that was great fun. I, I drove over with, with good friends of mine, the Thornleys. You might know Sarah Thornley as Sup Junkie. And with Johnny, my husband, and we all drove over together and I drove them insane because I was like, oh gosh, should we just turn around? Oh, should we just go on holiday? Should we just go to the pub? Should we just, oh, should we just sack this off? The whole way. And then when I actually got into the comp, I'm like, Oh, this is really good fun. You know, it was just nerves. And then the day of the distance race and the day before the distance race, you know, the weather was horrendous and it was like getting postponed. And I just thought, "Oh, I love these conditions I can't wait to get out there". And it just, it played to my strengths because I like those conditions. I think if it had been dead flat, no wind, I probably would have been last. But I love that kind of bumpy water. And I as when we finished the distance race, I just came in and thought, wow, that was brilliant fun. And you know, everybody else was on the beach with hypothermia having hated it. But I really enjoyed it.

Holly Pye: That's really interesting cause I've got a similar, I mean all three of us were in Poland for the ICF world championships and my kind of. The recount of that day is quite similar. The weather was horrible, wasn't it? It was windy, it was wet, it was really cold, miserable. But my, my parents travelled with me and came to watch at the event. And funnily enough, my dad said, after the racing, he said that the morning of that distance race, when the weather was awful, was the only day he didn't feel nervous for me. Whereas the sprint racing and the technical racing, he was nervous for me. He gets more nervous than I do. But yeah, because of the conditions, he was like, no, it's Holly's kind of race. And I think, I think in the UK, we kind of have to adapt to those conditions because it's nice weather, so rarely. And even when it is nice, it's windy. And, yeah. No, you did really well. It was an awesome day. 

Sarah Perkins: It was really good fun. And then I kind of geeked out on the stats a little bit afterwards. Because there was a big discussion. Should we be running a SUP race in these conditions? And I think, well, yeah, absolutely. Because people can race it, right? So I looked at how many people were DNF. So "did not finish" in each of the different categories and it was 50% in every single one. So across the board, you know, from your kind of like pro open category right up to 50 plus, it was 50% dropout. So I don't think that means that we should not do it. I think it just means that perhaps we all need to get out and paddle on some mucky water. 

Maddi Leblanc: I agree with you, Sarah. I think personally for, for me, it was, it was actually very hard to sit on the sidelines that day. I mean, Holly knows I, my knee was in a brace that time last year and I was like, "okay, I can't take the chance because this is too bumpy" . But, you know, I, I do believe when you look at top level paddling athletes, like I think that is an environment that distinguishes who, you know, who is really brave and who is willing to put themselves out there in conditions that are not easy. Watching you guys paddle that race That was very hard like you guys put yourselves on the line and put your whole heart and soul into that race and I think that's what makes It's a world champion and you should be at a world champion race racing in those conditions if you're a top level athlete, right? So not to say that those who did not finish you know, didn't put their whole heart and soul into it as well, but I would say that, yeah, definitely having that high of a dropout rate shouldn't like be a deciding factor of whether or not you guys should have raced or race in those conditions.

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, and I suppose it's tricky as well when you're thinking, if you're travelling a long distance to an event, what board do you take? And, there's a good argument for having a, you know, one board does it all. And it, it's always the, the, for me, the 14 foot 23 wide. And I think we, there's been a discussion about this elsewhere recently that you know, perhaps one of the forums, what's that kind of one board and that's the go to because you can paddle that in mucky water that's fast on flat water. It's just great.

Holly Pye: I think that's the board we all used in Poland. Like I was using the same and I think Maddi was also using the same too. I love that, that kind of board. 

Maddi Leblanc: Absolutely. Do you, do you have a board sponsor, Sarah? Or is there a board of your choosing that's your go to? 

Sarah Perkins: No, no, I would love for Sunova to give me all of their surfboards. That would be dreamy. But I do have paddles from Ocean Specific Paddles, which are great, which I use for surfing. And they're just bomb proof, brilliant paddles. 

Maddi Leblanc: That's amazing. All right. Well, Sanova, if you're listening, putting the mic nice and close here, you start sponsoring Sarah. She's going to give back to you. Spread all the love. Get on it now!

(Everyone laughing)

Holly Pye: What was it like in the middle of the race? I mean, you did. You did the distance racing, the technical racing, and the sprint racing in Poland. But, did you have, were you up close with the other racers? Were you having a, cause like, I always get, I actually get more nervous. Or, I think my heart rate goes higher from the panic that the person next to me is about to overtake me than I do from the actual intensity of the racing. I think of you like up close with other people or was it everyone quite spread out? 

Sarah Perkins: It was quite spread out and, and to be honest it was because I don't know a lot of those girls, I didn't know who was in my group because there was, you know, there was a whole bunch of paddlers out and I had a feeling I was up at the front but I didn't know. I couldn't really tell. So actually when I came in, I had no idea where I was. I didn't know if I was last or, what. I had no idea. So but then, I think you lot bouncing up and down on the beach kind of gave it away that something good had happened. 

Holly Pye: Aww. No, it was really good to watch. I'm really glad we got to watch your group paddle. And what about the technical racing? So technical racing when you're beach starting and going around all the turns in and out of the waves and everything short and fast. How did you find that? 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, that was really interesting. So the technical race, I really enjoyed, and I think there were, there were definitely girls there who was stronger than me, definitely. But you know, the clue is in the name with the technical. It is technical and it's about being able to do those turns and I can, I can turn pretty well one way, but not the other. And I actually knew that that last boy turn, kind of at about three o'clock in the morning when I couldn't sleep really thinking, "Oh God, I've got to do a race I'm in the final oh" nervous, nervous. That final boy turn, I did it about a hundred times at 3 a. m. in my head. And I thought, if you don't try and do a really fast, tight boy turn on the inside, you're a loser, Perkins. So, when it came to that final boy turn, I did just that, and I made up about four places, it seemed and then managed to squeak into third place. So,  it was the boy turns that did it, of course. 

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. Absolutely. Like, the power of visualization though, eh? Isn't that such a remarkable thing? When, if you can just literally replay it over and over and over in your head, even if you've never done it. I'm a big believer in visualization. I think it will help you execute your performance to the way that you want. And, and it sounds like it did for you at Worlds.

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, it did. And it was definitely that final boy turn as well. I thought, it's on my good side. I can do a good boy turn. And if, if it's tight, that will help me. And, and it did. 

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. So, will, will we see you at Another World, Sarah? Is that, is that in the cards for the future?

Sarah Perkins: Do you know what? I don't know. I've gone back and forth. I feel like no. That was a moment. We did that. That was good fun. I, I kind of, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Holly Pye: The ICF world's in Thailand this year, isn't it? I feel like you've got to go just for the holiday.  

Sarah Perkins: There has been chat about girls trips to Thailand I'll admit. So there has been yeah, we will see. I don't know what what I do like to have I'll admit is something in my calendar that I call a frightener and and a world's championship would do that. So I think it's important to have something at some point an achievable distance in the future where you think I am focusing on that, but it really scares me I need some fitness. I need some technique, you know, but I can get there in time and that could be the worlds or, you know, I really fancy doing a surf comp. That would be great fun.

Holly Pye: Have you got anything else in your calendar at the moment that's a frightener  for this year?

Sarah Perkins:  Any for me, any frighteners? I haven't got any frighteners actually...

Holly Pye: Not at the moment.

Sarah Perkins: I need a frightener.

Holly Pye: Sounds like the ICF Worlds in Thailand might be it.

(Everyone laughs)

Maddi Leblanc: You know what, Holly, I agree with you because, I mean, hey, Sarah, like your results at, at Poland last year, like they speak for themselves and I think, you know, we have a defending world champion that needs to come back. So hopefully we do get to see you at another world championship someday!

Sarah Perkins: Oh, that's kind, but we'll, we'll see. I'll find a frightener. It may not be the world's, but I'll find one.

Holly Pye: Something different, otherwise something new.

Sarah Perkins: Something, something big, something on the sea. Something frightening, yeah. 

Holly Pye: Awesome! And before we finish up today I really want to just ask, as paddlers and as a paddler who doesn't know, you know, a significant amount about wildlife and conservation and sustainability, what can we do to help? What is the best thing that, when I'm out and about paddling in my local coastal areas, what can I do, what steps can I take to try and you know, help the wildlife try and avoid extra destruction to their environment. What's the, you know, easiest things that I can, I can do on a daily basis?

Sarah Perkins: Yeah, good question. I think one of the best things you can do is enjoy it. So just, just take it all in, the whole environment, because of course, what you then do to help wildlife is you become a custodian of the environment and you're invested in the environment, looking how you've experienced it, you know, you like to see it clean. You like to see the wildlife. Then we're custodians and And just be respectful of wildlife as well Have a have a paddler's code of conduct that you're not getting too close to wildlife. But really I think it's about enjoying that environment and making sure you then stand up for it against some people who might not be. 

Holly Pye: It's just popped into my head at my local beach just down the road this time last year there was a seal, a kind of young, I don't remember if it was a baby seal but it was quite young. And the seal kept coming out onto the beach where people would go swimming from and they had, they tried several times to relocate this seal. Because, you know, people were letting their dogs go and sniff it and then it was getting so tame that every time it came nearby all the swimmers had to get out of the water and kind of stand around and encourage it to go back in the sea and it was just getting way too tame So they they relocated it several times a few miles away and every single time it came back. So now that in the end they've had to you know, put it in a crate or something and relocate it to Scotland which is opposite end of the country, which is really sad because this was the seals home and I'm sure it will happen again But yeah, I mean for paddlers as well. I think! 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah I mean, there was that terrible case with, with the walrus that appeared I can't remember if it was Norway or whatever and people wouldn't leave it alone. So in the end they ended up putting the walrus down rather than, you know, keeping the people away. Just devastating. But there's a real danger with approaching wildlife too closely like that and them becoming habituated to us. So something like a seal, if it's then very habituated to us, it might then approach boats. And then there's a very strong chance of like a propeller strike, which could kill it or, you know, certainly cause terrible injuries. So we've just got to give them space. And it just takes... We don't need to go everywhere.

Holly Pye: Yeah, it just takes one person who has a dog who isn't very friendly. And, you know, the seal is so used to people whose dogs are friendly to go up to it, and maybe the person doesn't care so much and suddenly something tragic happens. It's, yeah. We're all responsible. 

Maddi Leblanc: We are. Do you have any favourite organisations, Sarah, that maybe someone from afar or listeners can kind of learn more about? Or support, maybe donate to any wildlife funds or, or research projects maybe? 

Sarah Perkins: Yeah I think, you know, in the UK, I think a really, really good one to support is the Wildlife Trust. So, and you'll have your own local countries, you know, kind of equivalent. So the Wildlife Trust UK have kind of county level representation and they do so much like on the ground support for wildlife and lots of talks, lots of training. They can get you into wildlife spotting and they're the people to support. They do superb work. 

Maddi Leblanc: That's really good to know, actually. I always think it's kind of fun to shout out people that are doing good work, and, because there's so many different organizations out there, and to know from someone as highly acclaimed as you that that's a good organization to support, I think will definitely help our listeners go in a good direction.

Holly Pye: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. It's been really good to hear everything about what you've been up to recently and and from before as well. We've learned a lot, I think, or I definitely have.

Sarah Perkins: Oh, thank you both. It's been good fun. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, really good to chat with you. And I hope that our listeners have learned a lot as well. 

Maddi Leblanc: Where, where can listeners find more about you Sarah? Are you online? I know I've said your Instagram like a million times because I think it's pretty cool. I saw a lot of it this morning. But, yeah, where, where can people find you?

Sarah Perkins: I suppose, you know, kind of fun stuff. I have an Instagram account. I think I'm Sarah Perkins Perky. If you really want to geek out, you can read my papers by looking at Google Scholar. They're all available at open access. Oh, that's awesome. So yeah, I have a profile on Cardiff University webpage as well. 

Maddi Leblanc: That's great. I'm sure Holly and I can include that in the show notes so that people, can find you there and your research. Cause I'm sure it's quite fascinating and we can learn more about all of your fun parasite research and wildlife conservation efforts and yeah, I'm stoked to keep following your paddle board adventures and yeah. Maybe we'll see you at a Worlds, maybe we'll see you at a big wave SUP surf comp, who knows?

Sarah Perkins: Some kind of frightener then, I'll see you there.
 

Holly Pye: Thank you so much for listening to this episode with Sarah Perkins. We really enjoyed recording it, so we hope that you also liked listening to it. Again, we've been really appreciating all of your love and feedback so far from this podcast. So please leave us a rating if you can and subscribe just to get reminded every Friday when you get a new episode and you get to hit listen to our lovely voices again. We will see you next Friday for the next episode.

Maddi Leblanc: Rise and Glide is brought to you by the team behind Paddle Logger. Get more from your paddling with the Paddle Logger app. Find it on the Apple App Store today.