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Maddi Leblanc: Hello, all of you amazing stoked paddlers. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the Rise and Glide podcast brought to you by Paddle Logger. Today, we had the honor and the absolute pleasure to talk to Bella who has crossed two oceans rowing and her story was just, so phenomenal, eh Holly? I really enjoyed just sitting back and more so listening to her stories and really enjoyed this conversation about rowing across two oceans! 

Holly Pye: Oh my goodness. I know I was thinking the same. Just listening to her chat about her memories was I don't know, would you ever do that? Would you ever row across an ocean? 

Maddi Leblanc: I don't know. I don't know if I'm built for that. Bella like listening to her talk and her stories about how much time and preparation goes into that, and then... the fact that you are out at sea for so long, I don't know. I like crossings, like living here on the Great Lakes I love doing Great Lake crossings. I've crossed Lake Ontario twice, but that was like a 50 to 60km feat. I don't know if I could do hundreds and thousands of miles. That's intense. What about you? Do you think you could cross an ocean? 

Holly Pye: It is crazy. It's something I haven't really thought about, to be honest, so I guess, I don't know. I'm the same as you, I think I'm intrigued, but I don't know if I'd ever actually be able to pull it off. I think, yeah, the dedication to it. There's so many things I love to do, I don't know if I'd be willing to give them all up to just focus on one thing. I think if I did do it, I would... Love it. And I would be so glad I did it. But who knows? We'll see. Maybe one day. Maybe you and I could start our own team. 

Maddi Leblanc: You, me, Bella, and then we'll find a fourth person. We'll do a four man team, paddle logger team. Maybe Dave will join us. We'll pick an ocean and go across it. I think that'd be pretty cool. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, I don't think I'd be very good at the calming myself down when things start to go wrong, or if I was feeling challenged, I think I'd get very stressed and I'd probably panic. Not that there's much that you could do with that, you can't just quit and I guess that's part of the challenge, right? But it would be, yeah, it would be an amazing feat, but a massive massive part of your life, for sure. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, have you ever done any kind of rowing before at all or just like in the gym?

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah, more so in the gym. I think once in grade nine we had a summer gym class that was like a credit towards our high school physical education degree, and they made us try rowing, and I remember one of the row coaches, he did come up to me and he was like "oh, Maddie, you'd be such a good coxswain you're so small, and but you're powerful, so you'd be a good coxswain", and I remember, literally, my response back to him was so sassy. Like I said straight away, I was like "no", I said, "if I'm gonna be in a rowboat, I want to row. I don't just want to sit there and steer and then like yell at people". I'm like, "no, that's not what I want to do". So yeah, I never actually ended up like rowing in high school, even though I had that opportunity. Definitely straight up turned it down and yeah, I just stick to the erg any time I do row now in the gym, which isn't fun. I just do it because I have to. 

Holly Pye: And I feel like it's so different anyway. I don't know that I can even... I probably should take that back. That's the kind of rowing, because it's not but no, it was a great conversation. I'm really glad we got to chat with Bella about, the reason behind it as well. I think that's such a great message, hearing how she wasn't... no one's born a rower, are they? But she wasn't born into this adventurous super fit person that she obviously needs to be to cross oceans and be self sufficient. Like she trained herself to do that and it was super hard but she's done it and even now she's not necessarily superwoman, no one is superwoman, but she's able to push that message every day and yeah it's great to hear anyone who's listening could row an ocean. There's no reason. Why not? And yeah, that definitely translates into everyday life. A lot of the messages that she shared as well. 

Maddi Leblanc: Absolutely. I almost picture Bella as like the female version of Chris Bertish, like doing such a phenomenal feat and having a strong mindset at the same time and being super like humble and realistic about it as well. So I think anyone who is interested in long long long paddles or crazy expeditions should really definitely tune in to this episode. Cause Bella has a lot of valuable points that I think we all can learn from and apply to our daily lives. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, absolutely. So without further ado, let's get into this episode. We really hope you enjoy it!

Hey Bella, so great to chat with you today. Thank you so much for joining us on Rise and Glide. We are super excited to... we're going to chat all things rowing and ocean crossings with you. But before we get deep into that conversation could you tell us a little bit more about who you are and where you've come from and what you do and a bit of background information.

Bella Collins: Yeah, let me see if I can summarise it. So I'm Bella. I am, in short, an ocean rower, which is pretty niche, but it's not my job, I'm not an adventurer full time. I work in as a consultant at the moment, but have been working across multiple businesses throughout my life. My twenties started with me being in London as a marketing assistant, I was nicknamed Lisa Simpson by my brothers because I was the nerdy one at school that, wasn't really that adventurous and had no hand eye coordination whatsoever but at the age of 20 got asked to row across an ocean. And for various reasons, listened to my gut and said, "give it a go". And that's where it all started from. Yeah, in the last ten years I have rowed across the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean, breaking a few world records. And yeah, I also have my professional career alongside that as well. And a little bit more about me, I live in Cornwall. Moved here three years ago after a couple of years living in California. I've got a wonderful dog named Koa. And yeah. Probably like a top line summary of who I am!

Holly Pye: That was a great summary. Thank you. Thank you.

Maddi Leblanc: Wow, how cool is that, eh Holly? I don't think I get to talk to many people that say they've crossed, not only just one, but two oceans that we have which is so phenomenal. That in itself is I think that's all you needed to say for the intro. 

Bella Collins: It becomes quite normal to me. I'm like, "oh, I've just rowed across some oceans" but I think, and I'm in that ocean rowing world, so I know lots of people that rowed oceans. So to me, it's quite normal. But actually, I forget that it's not normal at all. 

Holly Pye: Yeah it's like super, how many people, I think it's something like... 60 something people have rowed across the Atlantic. Is that it? Is that right? 

Bella Collins: Or that's probably gone up. Yeah, it's more than that now. I think it's a... Maybe I want to say 300 or more now, it's become quite a sport, but it's still less than people who have climbed Mount Everest and I think more people have probably been to space, I think that's the other stat as well. So it's still fairly uncharted waters, excuse the pun, but it's slowly gaining popularity as an extreme sport in a way. 

Holly Pye: It's very extreme sport. You said that you got asked to row across an ocean. How did that come about, the first time? 

Bella Collins: Yeah right at the very beginning, when I was about 13, my uncle rowed across the Atlantic solo. And I just thought at the time, "oh my gosh, this is absolutely crazy who would do this?" Yeah, he was idolized in my life at that point and I never really thought gosh that was something that I'd be able to do and it wasn't really an ambition of mine either but then when I was about 20, my brother then went to row the Indian Ocean, so he rowed from Australia to, meant to be Mauritius, he missed Mauritius and had to go up to the Seychelles.

And I was in the Seychelles waiting for him to come in and one of the girlfriends of the boys in the boat was a woman called Lauren, and she'd attempted to row across the Atlantic Ocean when she was early on in that year and she'd failed and she had to get picked up by a tanker and taken up to Canada when she was just 400 miles away from Antigua. So she was putting together a new team to try and compete complete the ocean crossing. And she said to me one night, I think probably after a few cocktails, "I think you'd be good, fancy joining me in the new team" and to be honest, I didn't really think it was something I'd be capable of. I wasn't a rower, I'm 5'4 like, I'm not... The person that I wouldn't pick me as a teammate, put it that way but when I got back to London, it remained in my head and it kept bugging me, and I chased him and I said, "Oh, you still looking for a teammate? I think I'm in". And it all went from there and we went on to row across the Atlantic that Christmas. So not 

Holly Pye:  So not long at all afterwards!

Bella Collins: No, it was about I think it was only like a 10 month campaign. It was really quick, and we pulled it all together. Lauren was amazing. She became a project manager and took the whole campaign on, really, and was an amazing skipper and yeah, threw us all in the deep end. The first time I went in a rowing boat a couple of months later, I didn't know which way to pull the oars, whether it was, like, clockwise or anti clockwise. I was like, I have no idea how to do this, so I think I ended up going backwards. But yeah, I had to learn very quickly how to row a boat and survive across the Atlantic.

Holly Pye: I guess were you quite fit and into water sports before that anyway? Did picking up a new skill come quite easily to you? Or was that like, was the whole thing, that 10 months campaign, was it learning everything from scratch?

Bella Collins: Everything from scratch. I mean I'm a sailor. My family are sailors from both my mum and my dad's side. So there was a certain level of being at one with the water that I've always had. I'm not scared of it. I'm much happier on the water than I am on land, but in terms of like practical skills, I'm not practical at all. In terms of fitness. I was okay at hockey at school, for example, but I wasn't an athlete in any way, and I moved to London, I hadn't been to the gym for two years so it was all a massive learning curve, and... I don't remember much for those first few days being at sea, and when I came back from being at sea, I definitely had an almost lost identity in terms of I don't know what to do next, because I was therefore stuck in London, having done this amazing row, and I was like, "I don't know who I am now and what I need to do with my life" and so it was quite confusing and definitely let me down a, a route in my life that I didn't expect. But one I'm hugely grateful for doing and, the fact that I have the guts to say yes. It's probably one of the best decisions of my life. 

Maddi Leblanc: Wow, that's just absolutely so incredible. I still think it's just such a phenomenal feat to have done both and at such a young age and also at the same time too, it's like you're working like full time career as well. How do you find that balance? I can't talk today (laughs) that balance between working but completing these feats that you know, it's not "hey, I'm just going out for a 10km paddle" it's they're extreme, they're long, they're very long. 

Bella Collins: Yeah, to be honest, I haven't had much balance. I think that my 20s have been so I'm now 30 and reviewing how much stress I have in my life, to be honest it's not easy, and I think that half the challenge of rowing across an ocean is getting to the start line because everybody has to either find the sponsorship to do it, or they have to fund it themselves. Or a bit of both. So it is really highly stressful. And on top of all the sponsorship, you've got to, get all the skills you need to do. So first aid at sea, navigation how to survive at sea in a life raft. There's a lot of skills you need to do before you're even allowed to go and get to the start line. As well as, the gym training, your team dynamic training. So that's a full time job. And then you've got your full time job next to it. And so you have to really understand employers if you're gonna go and tackle something like this and I've been really fortunate that I've been so supported by both my employers at the time that I decided to row across an ocean. And actually, there are lots of companies that do understand that there's so many skill sets about rowing across an ocean that you can bring back into the office. And it's one of the things I love sharing, actually, is about the things that I've learnt at sea and the things I've learnt about teamwork and resilience. And I bring that back into my professional career. But yeah, back to your original question about balance. It has been really hard and I have had to sacrifice a lot to to do those two oceans. But I wouldn't change it for the world because it's made me who I am today and I am, and I'm happy with who I am today, thankfully.

Maddi Leblanc: Oh that, that makes me really happy to hear that, that you're happy with who you are. And I think that's actually quite phenomenal too, that most especially you touched on the point of your employers having that understanding and being willing to let you go and pursue those journeys. And I think... A smart employer would understand that going after something that big and chasing a dream that big does apply to a lot of what real life is, right? And I'm sure you gained a lot of great qualities and learned a lot about yourself from completing those feats that, that you can bring into the workplace as you continue to grow and change. I'm really curious what... What did preparation look like for both of your crossings? Like, how logistically did that work for you? 

Bella Collins: Yeah for both of them, it was about almost looking at the skill sets in your team and dividing and conquering. Because, like in any team, you can't all be the same and you can't all have the same skill set. So it's okay who is the best person suited to bringing the money in and pitching and being almost like the face of the campaign? Because not everybody actually wants to be in the public eye versus who are the people that actually just really want to get on with. All doing the equipment and, being there with the boat builders and understanding what needs to go on there. And maybe other people are really good at the team dynamics and bringing everybody together and saying here's some questions we need to do today. Like, how are we going to get to know each other? How do you act under stress? Like that real personal type stuff. And so you look at all those skill sets you have within a team and you say let's divide and conquer. And sometimes you've got two people on one thing or the whole team needs to be on some things. But right at the start of the campaign, looking at that and building those accountabilities out, essentially. And it's exactly the same as it would be if you're in a business. Who needs to do what and who's best suited to do it. Or which teams do you build within those teams. That's one of the things. And then the gym training is a lot. It's obviously a huge sort of task on your body to be at sea from anything between, depending on which ocean you do, between 30 to, I don't know, it could be up to 80 days. That repetitive motion on your body, a bit like paddleboarding actually, it's very repetitive and your body has to be able to cope with that.

I have a great PT and he's quite renowned within the ocean rowing world for the right training. So for the Pacific, for example, we got to a point that I did a marathon on a rowing machine that took me three and a half hours straight. And a rowing machine is a lot harder than rowing on the ocean, so that was really hard work. But he managed to get me from being able to row for about ten minutes to three and a half hours in six months. So that was a lot of dedication and hard work. And then, yeah, you're spending a lot of time on the boat, so actually, training in the UK waters, and just spending hours just getting to know your team, getting to know your boat, practicing shift patterns and changeovers, and trying your dry food, what flavours do you want out at sea, making sure that it's going to be right for you yeah, there's a lot that goes into it, and it can be a bit daunting when you start, you're like "wow, I've said yes to rowing across an ocean, and there is so much to do" and you just have to take it one step at a time, what's the first thing that's going to get us one step closer and just tick it off, because if you try and focus on the whole bigger picture, it can be so overwhelming that you just don't start and that's probably my advice to anybody, for anything big, any adventure, just don't be overwhelmed by what the finish line is, just, take your first step and focus on getting that one completed, and when you have, go and take your next step and miraculously you end up a years down the line at the finish line.

Maddi Leblanc: That's really cool to hear that. Just how many moving pieces there are to such a big feat, a big, a really big paddle. I'm also curious, how do you decide who gets to be in the boat? Like how does the team structure work and say "Hey, I wanna" I'm sure there's quite a few people that say "I wanna cross" so how do you guys all come together at that time to be able to pick your team and have who gets to sit with you in the boat?

Bella Collins: Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of people that I speak to and they always say, "Oh, do you know what? One day I'd love to row an ocean". But it's the people that come back to you and say," When are you going to row it? I want to be in your next team". They're the people that you know and need to be in your boat. And actually there's very few of them. That really have that inner want to do it because like I've mentioned it is a huge sacrifice and there's a lot that you have to give up and you can't persuade people to do this. You can't force them or you can't give them a pitch and be like go on give it a go. Like they have to have this real inner want and need to do it. Because, a campaign could be a year to two years long and when they're getting up at 3am for that night shift when they're out on the oars, they've got to want to do it. First of all, you've got to start with that inner want, and then you've got to look at your team dynamics. Okay what does this team want to do? As in some people do ocean rows because of the adventure, and they want to have fun, and they want to jump in the ocean, in the middle of the sea, and they want to stop when they see the dolphins. And lots of teams want to do it because they want to break world records, and they're doing it out of a serious place of athleticism. If that's a word, athleticism? I think so. And actually you've got to gel. So my teams, it's always been about having a sense of fun, but that sense of fun being the means to having a successful row. So probably somewhere in the middle, like I genuinely believe that when you are a happy team, you perform. And when you're performing, you're rowing hard and you're being consistent and therefore you're going to have a really successful crossing. And I would say that's the reason why both my rows have been successful. That's the type of people that I look for. People that, are motivated, they're consistent, they're strong, but they're always going to have fun and they're always going to put that fun first above everything else and that's what I always look for in people.

Holly Pye: Did you know all the people that you rowed with, before you took on the challenge? I know you mentioned that one of them was the girlfriend of a friend. Did you know anyone else in the team or was, were you all like quite new to each other?  

Bella Collins: Yes, my first crossing across the Atlantic, they were all new, I didn't know any of them. Because Lauren, the skipper, pulled us all together. But we were young, fairly naive, I would say, and we just had a really good time. It was really hard, and it was horrible, and I can talk about some of those stories, but Lauren made sure we had fun. And then the second one the Pacific, I didn't know P, and P was the one that pulled it all together, so I'd only just met her, but we immediately had this synergy, and we were like, we're gonna be best friends for life, and yeah we still are. And she was looking for two more teammates, and I knew of these two women from my hometown in Essex, and I said, look, I'm not close with them, but I have a feeling they're gonna be the right team members, and so I reached out to them and we became close through through the row as well. Yeah, it was a bit of both. 

Holly Pye: Cool, yeah. It must be hard to find people who want to do it as badly as you but it's also hard going and spending that much time at sea with somebody that you don't know all that well, you must get to know each other pretty quickly. But do you all train together and prepare together or do you do it all individually and then come together at the end to actually get going?

Bella Collins: In both my roles, we all lived actually no... so the first one we all lived in London, really, but we trained together on the water and then separately in the gyms. My second row, we all lived in different parts of the uk. And so we did a lot of time on Zoom, for example, every Monday on Zoom, go through to-do list chat to each other, how's everyone getting on? And then meeting up over the weekends to then train on the ORs, on the water. So a little bit of both. I think that it is really important that you do get to know people face to face because there's nothing like really seeing in the way that the tone that people talk to you with and the way you interact, so yeah, it was a bit of both, really. Yeah. I'm sorry, I've got both my dogs here that are now trying to get in my face. If anyone hears any dog noises, that is what is happening!

Holly Pye: No way. It would be great to hear more actually about the kind of team aspect and how you got on as a team! Was it all plain sailing or did you have like disagreements on the water and kind of spending too much time with each other as well?

Bella Collins: The Atlantic, we got on we all got on so well because that young naivety type thing, and Olivia, one of my other teammates, she did such an amazing job of hiding presents and treats on the boat one night, she brought out all these gold leotards, I think it was, like, New Year's Eve, and we all had this gold leotard rowing session with gold glitter everywhere, and then another hurdle which we got through, I think maybe it was like 500 miles to go we had face masks, and we all had these face masks on, and we had all these moments together that really kept us together as a team.

And then the Pacific, we were actually four very headstrong women, quite different personalities. And we had to work really hard to make sure that we weren't going to fall out at the scene, and we understood each other's communication styles. So we spent a lot of time before the road really trying to figure that one out in terms of... If you're stressed, how do those how does your personality show that stress? For me, for example, I cry a lot and that's just how I act. I'm an emotional person, and so I needed to tell my team not to worry if I was crying, but just to let me pop into the cabin and process my emotions so I can come out an hour later and be like, cool, I'm done crying, left that emotion back in there, and I can pop back out again. Like Mary for example, she's quite a bit tougher, I would say, and she just doesn't really cry. But it doesn't mean that she doesn't get stressed and when she gets stressed, she just went silent. And actually, the way that you break Mary down in that situation, you'd almost joke around with her, be like, "Ooh, Mary, bit moody today". And she'd be like, "Ooh, yeah, fine, I am a bit moody". So you could have a joke with her. Or the same with P, for example. With P, if she was stressed or emotional, she needed to be heard. She needed to voice her opinion and talk about it, and then have a really good cuddle at the end of it. And so you learn about all these different things about each other before you go to sea, so that you're not you're never second guessing when you're out there. And therefore we didn't really have any big arguments when we were out there. Yes, there were definitely some heated moments, but because you've learned each other's communication styles, you can very quickly get through it. And then leave it and move on. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, it sounds... Wow. I guess it's like an intensive friendship. Intensive getting used to each other and learning each other so that you don't have any...

Bella Collins: Yeah, it's like speed dating, but it's friends. You have to be like okay, we have each other. You almost have to figure out you've known each other since the age of four, but you've only known each other for a year. And you have to know each other's deepest, darkest secrets, because you don't want them coming out at sea. Yeah, it's an intense course of friendship. 

Holly Pye: Yeah that's so cool.

Maddi Leblanc: That's so cool. 

Holly Pye: What was the on the water training like before you headed out? Did you go in your boat offshore for long periods of time or was it all quite close to shore? I know obviously in London it's not maybe so easy to go out into the deep water. But yeah what did your kind of training look like? I'm only asking because I feel like it must be so hard to prepare for 30 days or more at sea where you're totally self sufficient. I struggle to imagine how you can really train for that apart from the fitness. 

Bella Collins: Yeah you, you can't. You can't really prepare for 20 foot waves, you can't really prepare for sleep deprivation but you can prepare as that team in terms of understanding how that team works under stress and that's where that training in the UK waters does help because you training in British waters is really stressful because you've always got really strong tides to contend with, you've always got really strong wind to contend with, so you could do like a three day row from, out of like one of the rivers in Essex and up the east coast, and yes, you're never going that far from shore, but actually navigating all the boats, the tides, the, the sands and all the massive hurdles that you've got in British waters when you're navigating them lets you get to know each other as a team and also you get to know your boat and you can run certain drills like, anchor drills are set very similar to the power anchor drills that you have out in the ocean. So there are certain things that you can do within British waters that can semi prepare you but nothing's going to fully prepare you for yeah 20 foot waves like you only find those in the middle of the ocean.

Holly Pye: Yeah, I can imagine. Was the Atlantic and the Pacific, were they very different to each other?

Bella Collins: Yeah, really different. The Atlantic it's predominantly trade winds that are behind you. If you didn't row, you would get blown to the Caribbean eventually. So that is a really good factor. We actually had, did have some headwinds when we headed out of the Canary Islands. And we knew that we weren't strong enough to row into them. There's some pretty strong men's teams that we were racing across and they thought that they could row into them. And so they just went, the most direct route to Antigua. We actually decided to head south and see if we could find stronger trade winds further south in the Atlantic. And we were really lucky. We, they were there, and we overtook about ten boats in, I think two days. And we actually came second out of 26 teams that were out in that race, because we took that risk to essentially row around the weather system and find the trade winds.

We also had a hurricane, actually, in the Atlantic, so it was the first hurricane to hit the Atlantic at that time of year in over 80 years, or something silly like that. So we were stuck for three days in our cabins whilst that hurricane hit. And, weirdly it wasn't that scary, it was just really strong winds in the wrong direction. Which was really frustrating because we were having a really good time, and we were rowing really quickly, and then suddenly you're stuck for three days almost heading in the wrong direction. Whereas the Pacific... Was really different. Rowing out of San Francisco is really hard, and all the winds and the currents are trying to push you down towards Mexico essentially, so they're going from north to south. And you're constantly just rowing, looking over your left shoulder, looking at where these waves are going to come from. Rather than the Atlantic where they were behind you. So they're pushing you in the right direction. So that was really hard to get away from California. And then we had a huge system that came in that. It was the only time in my life that I felt in danger at sea I felt my life was at risk and the waves were just so enormous that the whole boat felt like it was being thrown around everywhere. But it only lasted about 24 hours and the next day, the water just went flat as a pancake. It was just mother nature at its finest from one extreme to the other. It was like rowing through marmite the next day. It was totally crazy. And then the rest of the row... We basically didn't have any wind. We just kept being told by weather router. It's gonna come the wind's gonna come it's gonna push you towards Hawaii and it just never came and we've had to row really hard and I lost 12 kilograms in 35 days because we had to row really hard. So yeah, very different experiences.

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. That's crazy I bet did that 24 hours that you said like the waves were so enormous did that feel like forever? Even though you're like, "Oh, it was only 24 hours" I'm picturing like man, if I was on the edge of my seat for 24 hours, I'm sure that must have felt like an eternity. 

Bella Collins: Yeah, it did, and it started off so fun, because at first the waves were so big, and we were like, almost surfing them, and you were like, "Woohoo, this is amazing, like we're on our way to Hawaii yeah!" and then suddenly it got dark, and you couldn't see which direction the wind and the waves were coming from, and you start spinning on them, and, being threatened to capsize, and we put our power anchor out in the water, and your power anchor is essentially like a parachute that you put 70 feet underneath the water and it holds you in place. Or roughly in place. And that is attached to the bow of the boat. And I was sleeping in the bow with my teammate P, who was incredibly seasick at the time, because we had only just started the row. And I just remember hearing the tug, constant tug of the line on the bow, and just thinking the boat was going to snap in two. And the other two girls were in the stern cabin, so I couldn't get hold of them, because our walkie talkies are broken. And I had no idea if they were okay or not, or if they were scared, or if they were totally fine. But P was... Not really with it, so she didn't really know what was happening, and I just felt incredibly alone. But there was one moment when P came round, and I just said to her, I was like, "I am absolutely terrified. I'm praying, and I'm not even religious, and I don't really know. What to do". And she just said, "do you trust in the boat?" And I was like, "I trust the boat". Like I think, the boat's solid. "Do you trust that the knots you've thrown, you've tied and thrown out are good?" "Yeah, I trust the knots". "Then you just have to, you have to rest in that trust, right?" And you just lie there. And in and out of consciousness really and very uncomfortable. The sun does come up. And a new day does come around and I've actually got a tattoo that's around that sentiment in terms of even in the times that it feels like there's no light at the end of the tunnel, actually the sun rises every day like clockwork and you have to believe in that. And it's always a reminder to me that, yeah, there is always light even if you can't see it.

Maddi Leblanc: Wow. That, I think that's so inspiring that you take that message with you now. And you're gonna have that with you for the rest of your life after doing something so incredibly hard. Is there any other messages that you learned from your crossings that you would pass on to other people or you would share in terms of what you learned and the hardships that you have gone through?

Bella Collins: So many, yeah I do like public speaking around them now in terms of trying to share those learnings with other people because you never know, they might just help one person change something for the better, either for themselves or for others. So yeah, there were lots of lessons around resilience. And actually how to build resilience and be stronger in the face of adversity. A lot of lessons around teamwork actually, and actually I think a lot of people expect people to be perfect, and a lot of people expect themselves to be perfect, and actually no one is. So be kind to people, because everyone has their faults, and actually people probably are aware of their faults, and it's probably their insecurities as well.

So just be kind to people that they're not perfect, they can't live life in the way that you do. So look for what their attributes are, and utilize those, and make the most of those, and be forgiving for where they're not perfect. They're not living maybe up to your expectations in the same way to be forgiving to yourself that you're not perfect and really work on, "okay what am I good at? And how can I almost lean into those skill sets more to, add even more value to other people's lives or campaigns or work with the skill sets you have?" Don't almost work so hard on the things you can't do, because maybe they're just not what you're meant to do. Yeah, I learned a lot about people and myself and I'm constantly learning. Maybe that's the other thing you just, because you've rowed one ocean, doesn't mean that you know how to row every ocean, right? I'm constantly learning I'm constantly evolving, and that's... That's something that I constantly take into my life is that I'm now not perfect because I've gone and done something massive I've still got a lot to learn and I will continue trying to push myself to, to be the best version of myself.  

Maddi Leblanc: I truly love that message as well because I think, from some of the research that Holly and I have done on you, Bella, in preparation for this episode, is a lot of in empowering women and trying to also get women to step out of their comfort zones and push what they think is capable of. And maybe this is just really good timing, but I saw the Barbie movie last week in theaters...

Bella Collins: I still haven't seen it

Holly Pye: Yeah, oh my gosh! I haven't seen it either. 

Maddi Leblanc: What?! Oh, ladies, okay, you have to see it because... Literally everything you just said, Bella, is so in relation to the premise of that movie. It is about female empowerment and it is about not being perfect and being able to understand other humans, but take the skill sets that you have in your life and know what you're good at and use them as like your superpowers. I think it's just really inspiring to hear you say all of those things because I think it's so applicable to... to the world that we live in today.

Bella Collins: Yeah. And to be honest, like I'm a complete contradict because I have to remind myself of it daily. I say "don't be hard on yourself and lean into your best assets" and every day I'm still like, "I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough at this or I'm not a good enough friend at that" or "Oh, I didn't do a good enough job at, whatever and it's really hard". I think we're all really hard on ourselves and so I have to remind myself all the time, Bella, it's okay, what you've done is enough and just all you can do is what you can do. And, yeah, if I can remind other women, especially, because I think women are particularly hard on themselves, you're good enough, put your mind to something, I'm sure you can achieve more, but don't feel like you need to either you're good enough as it is. And, yeah, I think we all need reminding of that a lot. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, no, it's a really important message to share for sure. When you were... I just want to go back to chatting about that scary moment. In the middle of the ocean when you just weren't sure what was going to happen next, or when it was going to end... do you have any kind of, I know there's not a mobile signal out there, but did... what did you need to forecast the weather? Could you see that it was going to end, or was it literally just waiting it out? 

Bella Collins: No, we have a weather router on land so you have a sat phone. And through the sat phone, you can receive forecasts from your weather router. We also have something called a BGAM, which you connect it to a satellite, and it generates a Wi Fi signal, and then you can connect to that and download emails. So we could then get longer weather reports through email. It's not good enough to... Sit and scroll on Instagram, but, it's enough to communicate, and it gets better every year, like it blows my mind actually how much connectivity you can get out on the ocean now compared to my first crossing on the Atlantic where it was barely a message and now you can send back videos, it's incredible. So yeah, we have a weather router, and you can't really row around systems that much because you're so slow, you're going an average probably two and a half knots, so it's more about Just adjusting slightly to what is in your control, but also accepting what's ahead of you and managing that.

Holly Pye: How did you prepare for that? Do the boats you mentioned about being worried the boat was going to capsize, is that quite likely in those kind of conditions, or are they really... 

Bella Collins: No, they do happen, capsizes, quite a lot. The boats are made to self right. As long as you've got the cabin doors shut, which is number one rule when you're out in the ocean, then essentially you've got two air pockets at either end of the boat that if the boat capsizes, brings the boat back upright again. Being at sea is really about being very sensible and very what am I trying to say? Regulated, everything has to be tied down. You're always tied to the boat. The last thing you want is that the boat capsizes. You're not attached to the boat. You're separated from it. There's basically like... you're not gonna be able to get back to the boat again. You will be lost at sea. It's very much you come out the cabin, you shut the door, you attach yourself to the boat, and that's cardinal rules. It's not scary if you stick to those things. It only becomes a problem if you don't.

Holly Pye: Yeah, it's still nerve wracking though when you're in that situation and you have to rely on that. You have no other, or nothing else is in your control, you have to trust exactly like you said, you trust that everything's gonna happen just as you planned it and, yeah, you can't control it any further than that. Yeah, it's tough. What made you go and do a second one? 

Bella Collins: Probably because the first one, I was so young. Part of me wondered whether it was just fluke that I did it. You said at the beginning that I wasn't a rower and I had to learn so much that year. And even though I knew I contributed to the team in terms of I was a good team member, I tried my best to be positive and have fun and be a good team member, and I pulled the oars, yeah. But I don't really, I didn't feel like I... learned enough that actually I deserved the pedestal that quite a lot of people put me on. And so the Pacific for me was about, "okay, I'm older, I'm wiser, I'd like to feel like I belong on the pedestal that sometimes people put me on". So it was definitely a more of a self fulfilling thing. And it turned into be something bigger than that as well because we built this brand called "Ocean She Rose" and that became something about inspiring other people and using positivity to create change that essentially helps protect the planet. So there was... A second meaning once that was created that really drove us all and we were, we loved, working with our sponsors, and the campaign that we did, and the social media, and we just loved all of that, so there became another reason once we got into it, as well.

Maddi Leblanc: That's awesome. I'm so curious, do you think you'll do... Another crossing in your lifetime? 

Bella Collins: Never say never I know that right now, you know talking about like the sacrifices it takes to row across an ocean I'm definitely at a time in my life where I'm reflecting on my 20s and I wouldn't change it for the world, and I'm so proud of everything I've learned. But I need to give myself a break, and I think right now I'm in a place where actually I'd really like to enjoy Cornish living. I'd like to be able to go out paddleboarding or surfing or swimming. And not feel guilty for doing it because I've got a long to do list or campaign to run or I need to be in the gym on a rowing machine, I just for a little bit want to live and be present without thinking what other things I need to be doing or trying to strive for the next sort of medal in a way, so I'm giving myself a break, but I also know that I am ambitious and I do love being at sea. So yeah, never say never. I do have a dream of maybe sailing across an ocean and maybe I'll go out and try and get, some more sailing qualifications so I can, take a woman's team across across an ocean in a sailing boat. But who knows what's around the corner. I don't really believe in planning five years ahead because you lose sight of opportunities that might cross your path. But yeah, who knows. 

Holly Pye: That's phenomenal. What was it like with the eating and sleep deprivation you would... were you rowing or you generally I guess row two hours on and two hours off? Is that kind of standard for everyone or is that just what your team have decided to do?

Bella Collins: For four person teams two hours on, two hours off is pretty standard. Yeah, 24/7 throughout the night. On "Roll Like a Girl" by Atlantic Crossing, we actually, at midnight, did three hours on, three hours off. So you got a three hour sleep in at night time, and you only had to do one night shift. That was something we did in that team, but for the Pacific because of the way that we did the shift patterns with a crossover that wouldn't have worked, and so it was just two hours on, two hours off, constantly. Yeah, and that, that becomes your new norm. Yeah, it sounds pretty grim, and it is pretty grim.

Holly Pye: What's it like? So when you're in your off time, or when you're rowing hard, and then in your off time, you obviously have to, not just sleep, but you've got to eat something clean, do whatever you need to do, as well as sit in some sleep. How did you deal with that? 

Bella Collins: It does become your norm after about five days, I would say. The first five days, it's just a whirlwind. And actually in both rows, I have memory loss from both of them, because it's just baptism of fire, survival. You don't brush your teeth for five days. You don't change your bra, you don't it's just what have I done. I think I actually remember doing a video diary, being like this is a form of torture, like this is horrible. And then it just becomes your new norm, and you fall into routine, and you know which shifts you brush your teeth on. You might brush your hair once a day, or every shift you come off, you clean yourself. Hygiene's number one, because you don't want to get an infection when you're out there. You learn which shifts you like to rest in and which ones you like making your food in and you just find a pattern and I quite often compare it to being, I imagine, a new parent. Because I see so many mums in those first couple of days of having a kid and no one teaches you how to have a kid right?

And not that I have children so this is not speaking from experience at all but just from what I've seen. And it's actually where I draw inspiration from but mums are put into this baptism of fire with a new thing they have to keep alive and they just have to, get on with it, and I see the same with ocean rowing in terms of you just have to get on with it and suddenly it becomes normal, and you manage to live with that sleep deprivation, and in your day to day life, like now I have to have 8 hours sleep, like I do not function well with less than 8 hours sleep, but somehow at sea, under that extreme environment, you just get used to it and your bodies are remarkable and your mind's remarkable and I think that when people say I couldn't row an ocean, I'm like, you don't know until you try in the same way that you don't know if you can be a mum until suddenly you've got a baby in your arms. Yeah, you just get on with it. 

Holly Pye: Yeah that's a good point. And I guess you, you just have to make it work. You have no choice.

Bella Collins: Yeah, you do. Your mind just does it, and we all get thrown things in our life and they seem, So stressful and you can't understand how you're going to get through it and you do. People are way more resilient than they think and sometimes, again, you have to remind yourself of that. 

Maddi Leblanc: That's right. I had to go for blood work yesterday, and I had to fast eight to ten hours before. I was like, "this is one of the hardest things I've ever done. I can't function without food". But you're right. You, you get to that point where our minds are resilient and we can push through the hard. And I still I think just sitting here and listening to you talk this whole time, I'm still in quite a bit of awe that you've been able to accomplish something so big. Twice. Not even just once, but twice. I'm really excited to share that message with everyone because I think what you do is so inspiring, Bella, and I hope whatever you choose to do in the future as well it's just as big and it's just as awesome no matter what that may be.

Bella Collins: Yeah, that's the scary thing is oh, do I want to go out and do something big or do I just want to be contented and just, potter along and I know that. That changes all the time because sometimes I want to go out and inspire more people and achieve big things and see more things that I'm capable of and sometimes I'm like, "I just want to wake up and go surfing and walk my dog". Yeah, who knows, but I'm a big believer in listening to your gut and if your gut tells you, hey, take that opportunity, run with it, and if your gut says, no, take it easy but yeah listen to your gut.  

Holly Pye: I've seen some messages recently, I think I saw it ages ago and then I completely forgot and I saw it again and it's a quote that's you can have everything but just not all at once. You can do lots of different things, you just have to pick your moment, wait your time and yeah, let time run its course I guess. You don't have to rush everything and there's plenty of time.

Bella Collins: Yeah, some of the bravest decisions are actually to say no, and actually the reason it's brave is because you're recognising that what you've got in your life right now is enough. And I think in a modern society where we've got Instagram and, all sorts of people showing off, sometimes you feel like you've got to keep going or, earn enough money for that next holiday or that next outfit that you've seen somebody have and we're constantly striving to do more and be more and actually sometimes being brave enough to say actually I don't want that I'm quite happy with what I've got I don't want much more is really hard and that's definitely what I'm going through over the last couple months actually, am I happy with what I've got? Do I want much more right now? And maybe I don't but for someone that's always strived to have more, that's weird. It's really hard. It's quite an unusual feeling. But yeah, no, I agree with that statement. It is, it's really weird. I'm really struggling with it, but also feeling quite comfortable in it too. 

Maddi Leblanc: Yeah. I agree with you. It's a very brave decision. It's a very hard decision. But it's one that definitely contributes to all of our well being at the end of the day. It is a weird position to be in, for sure, but... 

Bella Collins: Yeah, and I think it's I don't know about everyone else, but I see a lot of people feeling overwhelmed. I speak to a lot of my friends and they're just overwhelmed and especially after COVID, our lives all slowed down and then they suddenly raced up again and everyone just looks exhausted and I think that sometimes we need to just sit down and say, how can I make life simple again? How can I start enjoying those simple pleasures and actually maybe getting out in nature is one of those things that helps us slow down and whether that is, having the luxury of being able to you know, buy a paddleboard and taking, an hour a day to go paddleboarding or taking five minutes even just to go for a dip in the water or, walk around a local park. But those moments nature really help you slow down and get perspective. And I think that's what I really want to encourage people to do more of is to slow down and take a moment because otherwise you just get this real sense of overwhelm and you never slow down. 

Holly Pye: Did you find that when you were like in the middle of the ocean, although there was obviously a lot going on and it was probably quite overwhelming at times. Did you find that you were able to slow down and just get into your new routine and you didn't have 10 million distractions in the background? How did you manage that and then how did you manage coming in at the other end? Was it exciting or or were you like, "oh shit, now I have to go back to reality?"

Bella Collins: Yeah, honestly, one of the the best things about rowing in consternation is... No one can get you on WhatsApp, no one can call you and then if you don't pick up be like, "why aren't you picking up?" There's no emails. There is nothing. You're not a people with beck and call and you just slow down. You have conversations at home. You have conversations with your teammates that you just wouldn't have on land and it's really peaceful. It's really magical and I feel really privileged to have seen the world and Mother Nature. Not many people do have the opportunity to be mid pacific and just really feel very small and at one with the world, and as cheesy as that is. And it is scary coming back to land because the moment you get a signal, your phone just goes crazy. We're talking like thousands of Instagram messages, WhatsApp messages, emails. And you're like, "oh my god, here we go again". When you're at sea, you really, we practice gratitudes, and we'd be like, let's just be grateful for what we've got out here, because when you're at sea, you want to be back at home, because you want the showers, and you want your friends, and you want your luxuries. But actually, when you're on land, you want the peacefulness of the sea, and so definitely on the Pacific, we were like let's just make sure we appreciate these quiet moments, and be grateful for this opportunity, and this privilege, because when we get back on land, it's gonna be whirlwind again. And definitely, that's probably a reason why I would want to row across another ocean or do something else is just having that disconnect for a certain amount of time. But I guess I'm just questioning whether I need to row across an ocean to get that disconnect. Maybe I can just go lock my, shut myself in a cabin in Finland or something instead.

Holly Pye: I was just about to say that. It's sad in a way that we have to go into the middle of nowhere to disconnect and you can't just switch your phone off for the weekend or go to the beach. And it's nice when you go camping or to a beach or somewhere where there's no signal and you're like, "oh, I can just enjoy it and I didn't have someone trying to get hold of me" or you don't feel like you have to do certain things. 

Bella Collins: It's weird. My friends got used to it. I'm particularly bad at my phone at the weekends because I like just putting it down and going out and just enjoying the weekend and I'm lucky to live in Cornwall where there's so much to do. Yeah, I normally get to a Sunday evening and I'm like, "Oh my God, I've ignored everybody". And I have to sit down for an hour and be like "Sorry". But actually, all of them just know now that I'm just not as good for not as good at messaging on my phone and if they need something urgently, just call me.

*Maddi loses cell service and drops out of the call*

Holly Pye: I'm not sure where MAD's gone. She's maybe she disappeared. Disappeared as well!

Bella Collins: Disappeared appeared. She wanted that moment of disconnect and she's like "l'm outta here". 

Holly Pye: Maybe that was it. And about eating, like did you have the same meals on repeat or did you did did you plan ahead? Were you like, "this is my favorite meal, I'm gonna eat it". What else? How did that go?

Bella Collins:  Yeah. Variety is the spice and it is the motivation. So we definitely plan to have variation out there. You are limited, really, in your choices a little bit but the dried food packets, you've got all sorts of foods from... Weirdly, my favourite is cod and curry sauce, which sounds disgusting. It doesn't smell that good either, but it tastes so good when you're at sea. A little bit of cod and curry sauce I love, but you've also got things like pasta and curries and shepherd's pies and all sorts of stuff. Actually the food bits... It's a really big motivator out there because you can also eat as much chocolate as you like and no one's going to tell you what you...

Holly Pye: No, that's so true. And I also, sorry, this is like a million questions, which I guess is the point of this. But I want to know about like the physical side of it. I've seen people talk about pressure sores from sitting all day. And, your hands must really suffer. Did you wear gloves, or do you have anything to stop your hands from wearing out? And how did your body, yeah, recover from that whilst you were at sea? 

Bella Collins: Yeah I've always worn I think they're called bear gloves, and they're like weightlifting pads. So you've just got little loops around three of your fingers and then a pad and therefore I've never really got any major blisters on my hands. After the first couple of days you get maybe a few from where the pads rub, but other than that my hands have always been fine. So I've used those religiously. I've always had a massive problem with my bum. So my first crossing apparently was so infected I showed a doctor afterwards I should have been on antibiotics. And Sitting down was like sitting on smashed glass and then having to row in it for two hours. It was just unbelievable and yeah, probably too much info, but I now have very sensitive bums. So if I sit in a wetsuit for too long all those sores come back out again and it's yeah, it's not fun at all. I did manage it a little bit better in the Pacific and I've learned, ways to protect it as much as you can. But yeah, that isn't fun and your shins get a real beating, so the waves always pick up the oars and you batter your shins with the handles of the oars and that's really painful as well. Yeah, your body does get a bit of a beating and it does take a while to recover. Especially because you don't walk, like you don't walk once when you're at sea. Because the boat's so small, you essentially, get in the cabin and sit on your bum again. You lose all your calf muscles and walking on land for the first week or so is looking like a... Like a waddling duck, you can't walk very quickly and you're rocking from side to side, but again your body it does get its strength back remarkably quickly, within a month you you're back to your full weight. There's a joke in the ocean rowing world that you you come back looking like Barbie, brown tanned and skinny, but don't hold on to it for too long because you're going to go back to normality within a month.

Holly Pye: How did you find that recovery? Did you feel shattered when you got into Antigua and Hawaii, or did you recover quite quickly? How did you find the physical transition?

Bella Collins: Yeah the Atlantic I think I was so young I bounced back quite quickly, not mentally I really struggled after the Atlantic, but physically I bounced back very quickly. The Pacific, I bounced back mentally a lot better because I think I was just older and I knew myself better but physically I think it took a little bit longer, and I just took a year out of the gym to be honest and just gave myself permission to not do anything and I am actually now back in the gym, and I'm actually weirdly back on a rowing machine, and I'm really enjoying it, I enjoy being fit when I say really enjoying it, I don't actually love going to the gym, but I'm enjoying feeling fit, and so I forced myself to do it Yeah, so it did take a little bit more time off to the Pacific. 

Holly Pye: I've seen people saying, in relation to not wanting to go to the gym, it's not, should you go, yes or no? Should you, will you feel better after going? Yes or no? If yes, then go to the gym. If no, then don't go to the gym, take a day off.

Bella Collins: Yeah. It's the same as swimming I've never had a bad swim, and I'm sitting in my flat and I'm looking outside and I thought it's raining and it's windy, I really don't want to go out there. But I've never come out of a cold water dip and been like, "that was awful, I wish I hadn't done it" because I always feel better afterwards, so it's always just pack up, get in the car and go. And then you come back and you're like, "wow, I feel so much better". So yeah, good question to ask.

Holly Pye: No, I think, I don't think I've ever regretted or ever had a bad, I mean I've had bad paddle sessions, but I've never regretted going out and paddling, I don't think. Even, I mean if it has been a bad one then I've learned from it. You learn various new skills or kind of things that you probably should know. And and that can make the future sessions even better again and I guess that's probably the thing. You must have learned so much at sea that you obviously are doing such a great job of sharing that message now. But if you do another crossing, you'll be able to take that knowledge and put it into practice. But I guess, yeah, mentioning about the sores on your bum, that must, even that alone, must make a third crossing seem oh, should I really go through that again? 

Bella Collins: Yeah, I think I almost need to have a bit of space between the last row to forget about it, to be honest. Because I definitely have been tempted to do it very recently and it's actually I think it's all still too raw, the memories of the things I didn't enjoy doing, whereas I left enough time between the Atlantic and the Pacific that I'd almost forgotten about the hard stuff and just remember the good stuff and yeah, the pain of the Pacific is still a little bit too recent for me to really feel motivated to get back on it again. So yeah, you're right in that. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, you must have seen some really cool things. I feel like we've spoken a lot about the negatives and the challenges that you face, but you must have seen some amazing things as well that you're so grateful for those memories. Did you see any cool animals, or were there any particular stand out moments?

Bella Collins: Yeah, on the Pacific we had, I think it's called a moonrise, where the sun, it was on the equinox, so the moon came up at the exact same time that the sun was setting on opposite horizons because obviously you've got a 360 horizon when you're at sea, and when the moon was coming up, we didn't know it was the moon, I came out on, to my shift, and the girls were like "We think there's a boat on fire on the horizon, but there's no boat on the AIS system. What is happening?" And then we suddenly realised it was the moon coming up, but because the sun was directly opposite it was lighting it up, and it looked like it was on fire. And it was just mind blowing, this entire view. So that was really cool. And then we also had I think they're called moon bows, where it rains at night time, but it's, the moon is so bright that it creates a sort of White rainbow, but it's just white. And that's amazing as well. So these things that you can't necessarily see here on land, or the stars. The stars are incredible. I remember one time a shooting star was bright. It was like a rocket in the sky. I thought the world was gonna come to an end. I was like... "Oh my god, this was like, it was totally crazy". So yeah those things keep you going. And I remember like one night in the Pacific, P and I were really struggling to stay awake. And so as she came on to shift, I was swapping with her, I said "Competition. How many shooting stars can you see in your shift?" And you try and pin your eyes open, be "like, okay, one shooting star". Trying to spot the next one. "Oh, there's the second one!" And you keep yourself awake by trying to spot them. 

Holly Pye: Yeah, epic. I've only seen a few shooting stars. And I've purposely been looking for them on nights where there have been meteor showers. And I'm sure it's nowhere near as good as when you're at sea, and it's just darkness all around. It must, to be honest, even just the darkness must be quite overwhelming. It must be so much darker there than here.

Bella Collins: Yeah, the darkness, when there's no moon, it's pitch black. You can't even see your hand in front of you, and I've never really understood really maybe appreciated the moon, because you understand when you're at sea that it comes out in these weird patterns. I never really appreciated, the moon doesn't always come out at nighttime. Sometimes the moon's coming out in the daytime, and you only get it for an hour at night, and so you have this new sort of appreciation of the moon when you're at sea, because you really rely on it for your light source at nighttime when it is out and how much light it really does provide. So yeah, definitely a newfound appreciation for the moon since being at sea. 

Holly Pye: Oh, lots of things to be grateful for sure. Yeah, in the next few, we always talk about what people's next steps are, but we've already spoken about that a little bit. But obviously people can find you doing various speaking events and things like that. Do you have any events coming up or anything that you'd like to share with our listeners? 

Bella Collins: I actually don't have any public ones coming up, they're all sort of private or corporate events but I love doing them. I love travelling around the country, meeting people and sharing my story and the lessons. So yeah, if anybody has an event coming up or anything like that, I've got a website, it's 'bellacollinsadventure.com'. All the information is there.

Holly Pye: Perfect. So people can find you there. Thanks so much for joining us today. It was great to chat to you and I've learned a lot about Ocean rowing. A lot more than I thought I'd probably ever know. Maybe one day... We'll see. I'll probably be one of those people who's that would be really cool, but won't actually do it. , you never know. 

Bella Collins: You might surprise yourself one day! 

Holly Pye: Oh, great. Thanks so much for joining us. And yeah, we look forward to seeing what your next steps are. Thank you so much, I appreciate you having me on.

Maddi Leblanc: Bye Bella! 

Holly Pye: Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Rise and Glide with Bella Collins. Maddi and I absolutely loved hearing all about Bella's challenges rowing across the ocean, and we've taken a lot... away from the conversation as well. So we hope you have too. Please let us know, send us a message if there was anything that you took from this conversation and we'll see you next week for the final episode of season one of Rise and Glide. I hope you get out on the water this week in the meantime. 

Maddi Leblanc: Rise and Glide is brought to you by the team behind Paddle Logger. Get more from your paddling with the Paddle Logger app. Find it on the Apple App Store today!